Author Topic: Drivel Control?  (Read 8934 times)

Offline TaxReturn

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Drivel Control?
« on: May 31, 2013, 02:24:37 am »
After seeing that somebody dumped their 80,000 word nonsense diary on devtome, I'm starting to wonder if some anti-drivel rules should be put in place. Since there's money involved I fear more people might soon upload “articles” resembling little more than incoherent ramblings.

I know devtome has no notability requirements and one man's trash might be another man's Pulitzer article, but there just might be some stuff everybody can agree to be worthless. There's probably no easy solution, perhaps some kind of community voting system could be established in the long run to prevent the most brazen spammers from making a quick dime...

If anyone is curious:
http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=the_diary_of_dan_fiction
In my humble opinion 80k words of grabby bullshit, but maybe that's just me.

Offline FuzzyBear

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 10:30:27 am »
yeah i think this falls into the category of "waffle" so should either be removed or not awarded shares... but unthinkingbit has the final say on the matter i suppose... or do all admins have the right to revoke articles... i don't want to be a fascist!!!
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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2013, 10:37:43 pm »
I didn't realize we weren't allowed to post any form of text.    :'(

Offline Barnacle_Ed

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2013, 03:31:41 am »
It seems inherently difficult to define what the word "constructive" entails, exactly. Are creative writings less constructive than more technical how-to's, and should their payout be reflected thusly? What if I write an article filled with misinformation; should I be penalized for doing so? Furthermore, who will be reading these thousands (perhaps millions, at this point) lines of text being generated each month and have the ultimate say in what a "constructive" piece is?


The payout system on devtome definitely needs to be looked at and I agree that there is quite a few relatively useless articles on the wiki these days...but we must be careful about how it is done! The results could be terrible.
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Offline FuzzyBear

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2013, 02:03:28 pm »
It seems inherently difficult to define what the word "constructive" entails, exactly. Are creative writings less constructive than more technical how-to's, and should their payout be reflected thusly? What if I write an article filled with misinformation; should I be penalized for doing so? Furthermore, who will be reading these thousands (perhaps millions, at this point) lines of text being generated each month and have the ultimate say in what a "constructive" piece is?


The payout system on devtome definitely needs to be looked at and I agree that there is quite a few relatively useless articles on the wiki these days...but we must be careful about how it is done! The results could be terrible.

Could not agree more with everything you say here... hence I was not going to be the one who makes a judgement call but feel that the payout structure will need to be looked at and will be as it was in the first massive influx of writers, there was a cap put on the number of words that could be written.  I feel it is important not to push away the developers and coders who are on the share list for the coding word they do as this is vital for the community and takes a lot more effort and thought than some of the article that are posted.  Without the wallets for windows the writers would not be able to collect their devcoins.... so I feel it a shame to push these hard working people out of their fair share of devcoins for their work. 
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Offline notabot

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2013, 10:33:54 pm »
removed by notabot
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 02:56:30 am by notabot »
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Offline Ashleysly

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2013, 11:46:18 pm »
After seeing that somebody dumped their 80,000 word nonsense diary on devtome, I'm starting to wonder if some anti-drivel rules should be put in place. Since there's money involved I fear more people might soon upload “articles” resembling little more than incoherent ramblings.

I know devtome has no notability requirements and one man's trash might be another man's Pulitzer article, but there just might be some stuff everybody can agree to be worthless. There's probably no easy solution, perhaps some kind of community voting system could be established in the long run to prevent the most brazen spammers from making a quick dime...

If anyone is curious:
http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=the_diary_of_dan_fiction
In my humble opinion 80k words of grabby bullshit, but maybe that's just me.

Im the same there. 80,000 words is 80 shares of nonsense. Its mostly tasteless. Theres a waste of 80 shares giving less DVC per share for people who want to do good for devcoin.
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Offline operaficionado

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 09:22:15 am »
Hmm..

I don't know how much I like this 80,000 word diary, but my understanding of DevToMe and its potential value is that it is completely unfiltered and all-inclusive. I like that idea, and think that it will eventually make DevToMe a stronger wiki than any other, as it will encompass every type of writing, not just the educated and well-researched articles.

The best solution I can think of - reading what has been said about the coders deserving their share and those working on viable and good information in this thread - would be to reward writers on a tiered basis, similar to the Original and Collated payouts. Writing that has much added worth to the devcoin community should be categorized as such and rewarded at a higher level. Work that no one finds valuable should be rewarded very little.

This will require a lot of admin work, and I don't know if that would make sense, especially as DevToMe grows and there are too many submissions per day...

Perhaps a point system should be installed? The more 'likes' a page gets, the higher ranking it has and the more its writer will be rewarded.

Offline TaxReturn

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 04:43:25 pm »
I don't know how much I like this 80,000 word diary, but my understanding of DevToMe and its potential value is that it is completely unfiltered and all-inclusive. I like that idea, and think that it will eventually make DevToMe a stronger wiki than any other, as it will encompass every type of writing, not just the educated and well-researched articles.

Sorry, but that's plain naivety. If Devtome will be staunchly all-inclusive what would stop me from posting the entirety of my mail account for example? It would be something in the ballpark of 500,000 words, it would be completely and utterly useless to everybody and it would net me some nice cash. And once such a tactic succeeds it will cause an avalanche of more crap by more people and so on.

The project is in a critical growing phase right now and if it wants to attract development and real creativity and provide a tangible compensation for useful work, it has to be steered in the right direction. To that end some rules and filtering have to be established rather sooner than later or Devtome will go down as a spam bin for useless crap.

Rule of thumb: whatever can be abused, cheated or hacked will be abused, cheated and hacked eventually. It's merely a matter of time, but having money involved increases the incentive to game the system exponentially and we are already seeing the first signs of that.

Offline Ashleysly

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 04:50:03 pm »
Hmm..

I don't know how much I like this 80,000 word diary, but my understanding of DevToMe and its potential value is that it is completely unfiltered and all-inclusive. I like that idea, and think that it will eventually make DevToMe a stronger wiki than any other, as it will encompass every type of writing, not just the educated and well-researched articles.

The best solution I can think of - reading what has been said about the coders deserving their share and those working on viable and good information in this thread - would be to reward writers on a tiered basis, similar to the Original and Collated payouts. Writing that has much added worth to the devcoin community should be categorized as such and rewarded at a higher level. Work that no one finds valuable should be rewarded very little.

This will require a lot of admin work, and I don't know if that would make sense, especially as DevToMe grows and there are too many submissions per day...

Perhaps a point system should be installed? The more 'likes' a page gets, the higher ranking it has and the more its writer will be rewarded.

Good idea. But more nonsense wouldnt make devtome a stronger wiki since a wiki is supposed to be a place of information and resources. If nonsense was to be posted, the shares will be diluted and people will leave the devcoin scene depleting the devcoin currency.
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Offline twobits

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 09:40:40 pm »
I think this is going to be the a larger and larger problem.    You get what you pay for, and automation can not really check for this.  I also find it interesting that people that post stuff like this are often the first to worry about when they will get paid.  Maybe hoping it happens before anyone sees what they posted.   Bounties though have a similar issue,   they encourage a quick and dirty solution that can can be put in place as soon as possible over work that may be a better long term foundation, but take longer to do.  This one writing gets around seven times as much as fixing up the clients for all the platforms did.

It already has effected the admin pay, which is why it was raised recently.  I do think the idea of buckets of pay are a better solution.   Though solution is not really the right word.  It just compartmentalizes it more.  Presumably this would get those that share that bucket of pay to also then monitor it more closely.  Then what is being funded is a little better controlled.  Even with the words per month limits, you just instead get sockpuppets.

Offline operaficionado

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 08:26:20 pm »

Sorry, but that's plain naivety. If Devtome will be staunchly all-inclusive what would stop me from posting the entirety of my mail account for example? It would be something in the ballpark of 500,000 words, it would be completely and utterly useless to everybody and it would net me some nice cash. And once such a tactic succeeds it will cause an avalanche of more crap by more people and so on.

The project is in a critical growing phase right now and if it wants to attract development and real creativity and provide a tangible compensation for useful work, it has to be steered in the right direction. To that end some rules and filtering have to be established rather sooner than later or Devtome will go down as a spam bin for useless crap.

Rule of thumb: whatever can be abused, cheated or hacked will be abused, cheated and hacked eventually. It's merely a matter of time, but having money involved increases the incentive to game the system exponentially and we are already seeing the first signs of that.

I completely agree. What is it you suggest, then?

In the future, I would suggest you don't call strangers naive. You might not realize that I am on your team, and this thread you started is a brainstorm to fix this problem. We all have our own opinions; you may not agree with what I say, but I expect you to reply with something constructive and use spell check (naivete) if you want to throw your weight around, 'O Wise One'.

Back to your statement about uploading a mail account or diary, I think it's bullshit, too. Shouldn't be allowed for obvious reasons.

If all content on DevToMe is to be monitored by its admins, they aren't going to have enough time to read everything and make sure unless a)a word limit cap is introduced (notabot), or b) we think of a way to help the admins monitor the site. What about having a 'flag this article' button? There can be a protocol to have the admins take the article down If more than X users flag it.

You get what you pay for, and automation can not really check for this.

twobits is correct, I think automation isn't the answer. A stronger community with good intentions might be a step in the right direction, though.

Offline TaxReturn

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2013, 10:50:51 pm »
In the future, I would suggest you don't call strangers naive. You might not realize that I am on your team, and this thread you started is a brainstorm to fix this problem. We all have our own opinions; you may not agree with what I say, but I expect you to reply with something constructive and use spell check (naivete) if you want to throw your weight around, 'O Wise One'.

I didn't call you naive, I called your statement about the all-inclusiveness naivety (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety) and my constructive suggestion is right in there, you even quoted it. You may not agree with what I say, but I expect you to fact check your orthography lessons and I would suggest you read what you reply to, especially if you decide to be flippant.

Offline EmilianoZ

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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 04:16:38 am »
This is really a test for the community, but we have to show strong ties so the entire community ends satisfied more or less with the outcome.
I am pretty sure something like this was destined to happen, we must respect each other so the argument can take a constructive path.  :)

This issue shows we need some more rules about what is acceptable and what is not. I would not state we could all agree about that, but as long as everything is resolved fairly (meaning the same rules apply to everybody), then we might not like a particular decision, but we will have to accept it.

I agree the community should be involved and vigilant about stuff in the site, but I do not think this is a matter of popularity, if it is things could get on the wrong track pretty easily.

I propose a system which relies on the community to spot unfit work, then a group or council of administrators judge the information, and finally the decision is held publicly with the devtome writer community to take a final decision. I know it looks burocratic, but I think it gives everybody chance to state their opinion, using tolerance and compromise to the site. The other issue about this approach is the exposure, I think the writer will be exposed anyway. A publicly held trial on the controversial pice of work could be the fairest way to make sure every side of the story is heard before having a conclusion. Another advantage from an open discussion about this is: the community stand is clear to anyone who cares about it, so undesired behaviour is avoided at source in future developments. 

Finally I will like to state, if the site gets the proper attention our careers will have a really nice push, and I am thinking in personal future here, we must not sell future just to get a quick coin. Beyond that, imagine, word gets out, devcoin pays for worthless development, the price for this coin is going to drop, because its value will be equally worthless. Personally, I have high expectations about the future of this coin, these will not be met, if we do not set some standard, and this is a great time to do it.
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Re: Drivel Control?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 11:26:57 pm »
On drivel, in case anybody's wondering about the troll on the devcoin thread at bct, it relates to an exchange here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210446.msg2441690#msg2441690 and similar via pm.

The writing sample was...

"I bet I can write for days! What I need is someone to sit here and write everything down I say, kinda like Hunter S. Thompson or Jack K...ha you know who. Well If I start talking about pennystocks and kool-aid touters~ it's all over! I'll attempt to not make you feel too bad. You expect to make it in this crazy game youse gotta due your homework! What I need is for Yoshitoshi to build is a proper level two quoting system for all nucoins. ...iz good idearrr?
*speaL cheek'dd*"

...response was a dazed but pretty reasonable "Hi. Not quite sure what that was mate, you can't just write drivel. Me and others do read and check through submissions to devtome and can just remove articles that add zero value. But I have activated your account to enable you to be a writer in the wiki, so good luck with your articles. Any more questions please feel free to ask."
 
Followed by "drivel? "  do you know who you are talking to?lol  >>>what country are you posting from? so you are censoring based on just what YOU feel is useful? wtf"

...and more then moved on to the forum post above, when I later decided to deactivate his account, which in retrospect looks to have been an even better decision for devtome but demands some suffering (or ignoring) in the thread.